Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conor Dary View Post
    "In my opinion, overall he's been bad for the sport."

    At this point it is hard to argue with that....His obsessionness on doing anything to be faster which dates from his DMSO days at Oregon is rather tragic...

    None of the stories surprise me much....as for not being true....lots of athletes are supporting Cain's version of events....

    Salazar's CAS hearing is suppose to start no earlier than March...I don't think at this point it matters much which way it goes...
    I forgot about DMSO. It's not like the mindset is anything new (and certainly is not limited to sport).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Iíll only go so far with opposing the conventional wisdom here. Salazar may be a terrible person, but since working with him was seen as a good path to success, Iím guessing a lot of people were willing to make trade offs.
    Not the one's that left him, failed under him, or ultimately decided against going with him. So, maybe there are some that were willing to cheat with him, but they probably would do that with any coach.

    Also, I think conventional wisdom is to blame the athlete, as they are the agent of success/failure, cheating/honesty, and it is unconventional to blame the coach. But when viewed in light of the Svengali guiding them in this case, and the number of athletes who left him, were successful before and/or after leaving him, and are now critical of him, it's pretty hard to deny that he's the main bad guy in this scenario.
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    Cain on Twitter today:

    @runmarycain

    I’m calling @Nike to open its investigation to a third-party. Commit to turning over all emails of employees, NOP members and outside docs/consultants. Let everyone be truthful and assure the company will not retaliate against current athletes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve View Post
    Not the one's that left him, failed under him, or ultimately decided against going with him. So, maybe there are some that were willing to cheat with him, but they probably would do that with any coach.

    Also, I think conventional wisdom is to blame the athlete, as they are the agent of success/failure, cheating/honesty, and it is unconventional to blame the coach. But when viewed in light of the Svengali guiding them in this case, and the number of athletes who left him, were successful before and/or after leaving him, and are now critical of him, it's pretty hard to deny that he's the main bad guy in this scenario.
    By and large, those athletes were not kids. They aren’t stupid either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    By and large, those athletes were not kids. They aren’t stupid either.
    I don't think anything I've written has indicated that they were "kids" or "stupid". I think an intelligent, driven, well-intentioned adult athlete can be led astray by a coach, like Alberto Salazar did, because of the trust an athlete puts in a coach's guidance. None of that absolves him of his wrongdoings, and it does reflect quite well on them for coming forward knowing they will meet skepticism like yours.

    You seem to be ignoring a lot of what is being discussed, and falling back on statements that seem to apologize for, or at least mitigate some of the guilt of, Alberto Salazar. Do you think that this is just some witch hunt to get him? I don't. Too many people with extremely similar stories, successful athletes of his distancing themselves from him, and a significant ban.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve View Post
    ......
    You seem to be ignoring a lot of what is being discussed, and falling back on statements that seem to apologize for, or at least mitigate some of the guilt of, Alberto Salazar. Do you think that this is just some witch hunt to get him? I don't. Too many people with extremely similar stories, successful athletes of his distancing themselves from him, and a significant ban.
    For sure, Salazar is going down. There is no question about that. I don’t think im ignoring anything. We’ll see what happens.
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    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve View Post
    It also wouldn't surprise me if it is completely true. Alberto Salazar (among other coaches like Trevor Graham before him) seems to have his success as a coach as his primary goal, not the success of each of his athletes. ...

    If he coaches many, many people, and pushes the boundaries with all of them, he has a chance at having a few successes.
    Not sure exactly what your point is but if you are saying that he would take a chance with an individual athlete in terms of doping because he can have a number of bad results along with a few very good ones then I think that you are as dead wrong as you can be. As soon asany of the athletes tests positive, all the athletes are suspect and success are downgraded substantially in virtually everyone's mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26mi235 View Post
    Not sure exactly what your point is but if you are saying that he would take a chance with an individual athlete in terms of doping because he can have a number of bad results along with a few very good ones then I think that you are as dead wrong as you can be. As soon asany of the athletes tests positive, all the athletes are suspect and success are downgraded substantially in virtually everyone's mind.
    Clearly that's exactly what he did. He took chances that he thought would not lead to positive tests, and that he thought he could explain away with therapeutic use exemptions.In addition, he had weight loss and training goals that may work for some and not for others, like Mary Cain. He was cruel to those who didn't follow his plan even when it wasn't working. If it doesn't work for 18 of 20 athletes and 2 are olympic medalists, he can claim success and more athletes will flock to him.

    He may not even think it as cheating, but his boundary pushing was considered cheating and he was suspended.He thought he could coach in the way he did, and manage whatever fallout occurred. He was wrong, like other coaches before him, but he seems to have done it to a greater degree than the rest, and had deeper pockets supporting him.Heprobably never even saw this coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve View Post
    Clearly that's exactly what he did. He took chances that he thought would not lead to positive tests, and that he thought he could explain away with therapeutic use exemptions.In addition, he had weight loss and training goals that may work for some and not for others, like Mary Cain. He was cruel to those who didn't follow his plan even when it wasn't working. If it doesn't work for 18 of 20 athletes and 2 are olympic medalists, he can claim success and more athletes will flock to him.

    He may not even think it as cheating, but his boundary pushing was considered cheating and he was suspended.He thought he could coach in the way he did, and manage whatever fallout occurred. He was wrong, like other coaches before him, but he seems to have done it to a greater degree than the rest, and had deeper pockets supporting him.Heprobably never even saw this coming.
    Con artists of all flavors have a way of sucking people in. And to quote Richard Feynman, "you are the easiest person to fool." I'm sure AS is incapable of not fooling himself.
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    I can see it not too far down the road: "Mr. Salazar, the good news is we are not USADA, the bad news is we are 60 Minutes".
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