Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsb3 View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue .... here's mine. Kipchoge is a basic 2:03 marathoner. Nothing he has done since he broke 2:04 (2:03.05, London Marathon, April/2016) indicates that he is any better of an athlete now, than he was then.
    Let's see how this holds up. After winning London in a time that was almost in the 2:02s and mere seconds slower than the WR on a faster course, he run a really slow marathon 2:08 marathon [oh, wait, that was a championship marathon where time is unimportant (he easily ran away from everyone when he went) and was in pretty warm and humid conditions.

    Then in the spring of 2017 he did his Monza 2:00:25, which clearly is worth 2:02. Then Berlin in a mere 2:03:32 in the rain; enough rain to make an impact on the time.

    In 2018 He wins London [It was officially recorded as the hottest London Marathon to date at a peak temperature of 24.1 C (75.4 F)] by half a minute with third (Mo Farah) two minutes back. In the Fall he wins Berlin in 2:01:39 [sorry, you do not get to discount a 2:01 because you have a paper-thin counter narrative about him being no better than half a dozen other runners]. The field is littered with badly beaten 2:03/2:04/2:05 runners and a mere 2:06 guy (but his main efforts were two Golds and a Silver in Championship races).

    In 2019 he wins London in record time, 2:02, beating handily the probably the best field ever.

    So, he has a 1:59, a 2:00, a 2:01, a 2:02, and two 2:03s in not-great weather that are easily worth 2:02.

    So, not only is he not a mere 2:03 guy, adjusting for weather he hasn't run worse than 2:02 since a pair of 2:04 wins in 2015. And multiple runners had EK's shoes, including non-Nike runners, so he is beating everyone as well, apparently irrespective of shoes.

    Face it, if there are a number of 2:02/2:03 runners out there and his only loss is a second to a WR, and since 2014 he has only been racing WMM with the top competition and his is NOT picking a good one, he has basically run a marathon at every opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsb3 View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue .... here's mine. Kipchoge is a basic 2:03 marathoner.

    ...
    If that is true, everyone else, with the possible exception of Bekele, is a basic 2:04 plus marathoner. It is probably true that the shoes give him, and anyone else who wears them, an advantage. But he has met all comers in various conditions over the last six years, with "only" a second place behind the then WR to mar his record.

    WMM's are the measure for marathoners, and EK has won 9 of them. Cheruiyot and Kipsang are next with 5 each, and both of them have far more losses on their CV than does EK.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Marathon_Majors
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobguild76 View Post
    WMM's are the measure for marathoners, and EK has won 9 of them. Cheruiyot and Kipsang are next with 5 each, and both of them have far more losses on their CV than does EK.
    Exactly. Has anyone ever (at least in modern times) been winning top marathon races as consistently as Kipchoge? To me, he is already the matathon GOAT even if you ignore his two non-record-eligible runs.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...
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    no argument from me that Kipchoge is the greatest ever........ however, that in and of itself doesn't make him at his best a sub-2:00 performer. One can doubt his high end without downgrading his all-time status; they're not joined at the hip.
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    I don't think of his as a sub-2:00 performer, or even a 2:01 guy, but to think that he is a 2:03 guy who only beat some 2:02 guy because he had wings on his feet is not a good read on the record. Also, I am surprised that people keep citing the time as 1:59:40, since it was 1:59:40.2 => 1:59:41.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    no argument from me that Kipchoge is the greatest ever........ however, that in and of itself doesn't make him at his best a sub-2:00 performer. One can doubt his high end without downgrading his all-time status; they're not joined at the hip.
    I really hope, for his own legacy, that he breaks 2 in a legit marathon, VF4s or no VF4s. I don't have a problem with the shoes, but the pacing lights and circle of pacers around him - who are not actually running the whole 26.2 - is indeed a huge

    *

    on his oeuvre.
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    I agree with that....
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    To clarify, I do think Kipchoge is the best ever, I said as much in my earlier post. And I do think he can run faster. I think he could have run much faster the other day, if he wasn't running conservatively just to secure the sub 2 hour finish. However, I don't think that a 1:59.41 is much better than a 2:03, if you are one of those (like me) who believe that we need to evaluate the shoes as part of the performance, along with all the other factors. I agree with those that would love to see him try and run faster without all the "non-legal" accoutrements. Anyways, he's a great athlete for sure. I just don't think he has shown us yet that he's a "true" sub 2 hour guy, and I realize that means different things to different folks. And then there's the Women's Marathon !
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    IAAF General Secretary Donald Pain issued a pre-Mexico statement saying, "The new shoes cannot be allowed at the Olympics because no change in our technical rules can be made for the 12 months leading up to the Games."

    this was the same dodge that Adriaan Paulen used 4 years later on Bob Seagren's poles in Munich.
    Not really the same dodge. In 1968, the IAAF Rules of Competition clearly provided (in Rule 142.4) "The number of spikes is limited to a maximum of six in the sole proper and two in the heel." The brush spikes were clearly illegal without a change in the technical rules. Moreover, the rules specifically provided (in Rule 13.3) that "No alterations or additions to the technical rules passed during the twelve months preceding any Olympic Games shall be effective until after the Games."

    But in 1972, there was no rule that would have made Seagren's pole illegal. Paulen just decided that it wasn't fair for Seagren to use a pole that had not been generally available for 12 months. So he didn't allow Seagren to use his poles.
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    That was awful in 1972....at 11:00 here you can see what Seagran thinks of Paulen....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6pR...&persist_app=1
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