Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    That's not a high bar to clear (to use a T&F metaphor!).
    Yes, but considering that the final pass wasn’t very efficient because 1) they wanted be sure to correct their mistake from the day before and 2) a different (faster) anchor was running, any criticism should be tempered by the fact that they made a decent, safe pass after almost botching it the day before. If you look at all the passes by the other teams (I have), no team had all 3 passes that were any better than that 3rd USA pass. In fact, if you look at the gold-medal-winning efforts from years past (USA and others), you will see several passes significantly worse than USA’s 3rd pass from yesterday. I think that given the recent history of the m4x100, we risk becoming hyper-critical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyclone View Post
    I agree with DoubleRBar. Coleman is the best starter in the world & like Double R says Christian is too valuable on leadoff!! Baker (or whoever) can run 3rd leg.

    You may have missed it but when Coleman anchored the US in the 2017 World Championships 4x100 relay he actually lost the lead to the British anchor and we had to settle for silver. (8:15 minute mark)

    Coleman is the fastest starter and Lyles the fastest finisher.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJhTYlYjjj4
    Please go and watch the 2017 race again and slow it down at the final exchange. 13:37 in particular in the video you linked. NMB had a huge lead that Coleman actually cut considerably into. This is reflected by the anchor splits (NMB 9.04, Coleman 8.87 according to IAAF Doha 2019 Statistics Handbook)
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    Quote Originally Posted by asindc View Post
    Nicely done, USA! Only hiccup was the last exchange, but Iím not upset with how conservative the approach was for both guys. This relay represents a changing of the guard for USA as Gatlin and Rodgers will almost certainly be replaced next year.

    ....
    Nah, Gatlin is going to be running into his 50s. Heíll do it just to annoy His lordship(Coe).
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    My analysis from the only video I have found:
    Coleman made up the stagger (@6 meters on the Chinese lead in Lane 9)
    First exchange: might be the best men's exchange in the past 12 years in a global meet.
    Gatlin did not put his arm back early (at least from the camera angle from behind the runners) and the mark was quite a distance from where Gatlin was standing. The exchange was deep in the zone and smooth and quick). A+

    Second exchange: can't say where the mark was, Rodgers is in the outside of the Lane
    When he should be on the inside. He does move to the middle but Gatlin has to avoid hitting him. Excahnage was well before the 200 m start mark which means it was too early.
    Ideally, you want Gatlin to have the stick longer which is why he was second to begin with.
    Grade. C. GBR had a little problem with their second and cost them a little time.

    Third exchange: The US uses the "Star sub" to put Lyles on the anchor. (FTR: I posted Lyles for anchor weeks ago). The mark Lyles gave Rodgers was about even with the Chinese and GBR marks, IOW, fairly close to get the baton to the anchor ASAP.
    Lyles was late leaving, showing his inexperience which would have been corrected if he had run the prelim. ( As well as avoiding two protests which to my eye were legit, the Baton was out of the zone with both hands on it, another break for the US)
    Lyles gets the baton with 110 m to the finish line with a lead on the Japanese and GBR)
    (Another FTR,, the US would have been DQ'd for early touching under the old rule)
    Grade B-
    But for the US men any 3 completed passes in the same race is gold.
    Three fastest guys on the same team, that team should win.
    New American Record of 37.11 and best of all - Not having to listen to the excuses of the relay apologists for US ineptitude. Alleluia!
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    Oh, and before I forget, consider what may have been the time if my order of
    Rodgers-Gatlin-Coleman-Lyles had been used. Sub 37 for sure.

    Gatlin would have had to catch Coleman and Coleman would have given Lyles confidence to
    Get out fast and know Coleman would finish strong and get the baton to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJG View Post
    ...
    New American Record of 37.11 and best of all - Not having to listen to the excuses of the relay apologists for US ineptitude. Alleluia!
    Love the analysis, thanks. I thought at their best maybe they could challenge the AR, but to trounce it by that much is very satisfying. Only two JAM marks with Bolt are faster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Jay View Post
    Coleman on the Leadoff, Lyles on anchor. Could be the bookends on the 4x1 from now through 2028 for us
    I agree. As Ato Boldon has pointed out on various occasions, Coleman is the best accelerator and Lyles is the best decelerator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJG View Post
    My analysis from the only video I have found:
    Coleman made up the stagger (@6 meters on the Chinese lead in Lane 9)
    First exchange: might be the best men's exchange in the past 12 years in a global meet.
    Gatlin did not put his arm back early (at least from the camera angle from behind the runners) and the mark was quite a distance from where Gatlin was standing. The exchange was deep in the zone and smooth and quick). A+

    Second exchange: can't say where the mark was, Rodgers is in the outside of the Lane
    When he should be on the inside. He does move to the middle but Gatlin has to avoid hitting him. Excahnage was well before the 200 m start mark which means it was too early.
    Ideally, you want Gatlin to have the stick longer which is why he was second to begin with.
    Grade. C. GBR had a little problem with their second and cost them a little time.

    Third exchange: The US uses the "Star sub" to put Lyles on the anchor. (FTR: I posted Lyles for anchor weeks ago). The mark Lyles gave Rodgers was about even with the Chinese and GBR marks, IOW, fairly close to get the baton to the anchor ASAP.
    Lyles was late leaving, showing his inexperience which would have been corrected if he had run the prelim. ( As well as avoiding two protests which to my eye were legit, the Baton was out of the zone with both hands on it, another break for the US)
    Lyles gets the baton with 110 m to the finish line with a lead on the Japanese and GBR)
    (Another FTR,, the US would have been DQ'd for early touching under the old rule)
    Grade B-
    But for the US men any 3 completed passes in the same race is gold.
    Three fastest guys on the same team, that team should win.
    New American Record of 37.11 and best of all - Not having to listen to the excuses of the relay apologists for US ineptitude. Alleluia!
    Very good analysis DJG. I also completely agree about your point about the upsweep pass not being as efficient as the push-free distance! There's no better pass to gain free distance than one that is straight.

    Also agreed on your point about how inefficient it is to run with the arms extended for more than a few steps is a great way to lose speed/have the baton slow through the zone! We see the same thing when a jumper approaches takeoff and lets the arms drop or excessively cross the midline of the body, there is often a "gathering" moment and loss of velocity. It's something I coach athletes to avoid, only extend the arm when you know you are close enough to actually make the pass. Running more than few meters with the arms extended is never a good idea if not close enough to pass.

    I could not believe the number of steps that were taken with the arm extended. Norwood also did it in the 4x4 on Saturday. London leaving early would still not have made that a good idea!

    On the second exchange I can't figure out what Rodgers was trying to do. He starts inside, veers outside then moves back to the inside where he should have been all along to share the lane with Gatlin. I can go with either (for second exchange) the athlete lining up on the inside but staying there OR lining up on the outside but running a tangent to the curve (the way some set up blocks for a 200m start in outer lanes) but MR did a zig zag! He was also very casual about his acceleration, looked more like a build-up stride than an acceleration.
    Last edited by cladthin; 10-07-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJG View Post
    Ideally, you want Gatlin to have the stick longer which is why he was second to begin with.
    That's why the Rodgers/Gatlin exchange ended up out of the zone a couple years ago. Pushing the limit on Gatlin running a long leg means decreasing your wiggle room if anything goes wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cladthin View Post
    Very good analaysis DJG. I also completely agree about your point about the upsweep pass not being as efficient as the push-free distance! There's no better pass to gain free distance than one that is straight.

    Also agreed on your point about how inefficient it is to run with the arms extended for more than a few steps is a great way to lose speed/have the baton slow through the zone! We see the same thing when a jumper approaches takeoff and lets the arms drop or excessively cross the midline of the body, there is often a "gathering" moment and loss of velocity. It's something I coach athletes to avoid, only extend the arm when you know you are close enough to actually make the pass. Running more than few meters with the arms extended is never a good idea if not close enough to pass.

    I could not believe the number of steps that were taken with the arm extended. Norwood also did it in the 4x4 on Saturday. London leaving early would still not have made that a good idea!

    On the second exchange I can't figure out what Rodgers was trying to do. He starts inside, veers outside then moves back to the inside where he should have been all along to share the lane with Gatlin. I can go with either (for second exchange) the athlete lining up on the inside but staying there OR lining up on the outside but running a tangent to the curve (the way some set up blocks for a 200m start in outer lanes) but MR did a zig zag! He was also very casual about his acceleration, looked more like a build-up stride than an acceleration.
    Thanks CT, Superior speed can make up for a lot of mistakes on the 4x1's. The 4x4 problem is rare, but London took his eye off the baton. I tell the incoming runner to keep normal arm swing until the receiver opens up, then extend and the outgoing runner is responsible to snatch that stick being held vertical. The incoming runner better be so tired from blitzing that 400 that all they can do is hold the stick up!

    Agreed wth you about the second exchange technique, I prefer the third leg starting inside and staying inside. Don't want my incoming runner seeing him outside and then thinking
    "He's outside should I be inside?"
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