Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by trackCanuck View Post
    I haven't seen anyone advocating for unethical medicine in these parts. What I've read are posts from people who think it is unethical to have unfair competition.

    Her advantage is not in question, its results have been on display for more than a decade. Only someone in denial because of some agenda that has nothing to with biology and how it affects fairness in sport would refuse to acknowledge it.
    It is unethical to make women with DSD take hormones when they are not needed. It is unethical to treat a woman with DSD as male.

    As for her advantage, yea it is in question. Because I have yet to see any scientific report that proves her DSD gives her an advantage. If this exists, please share it.

    What you see with your eyes on TV isn't scientific evidence I'm afraid.(bit like these 'doctors' diagnosing anorexia, a mental health disorder, via a TV screen. )
     

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    #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    If this is about science and fairness, what business is it of the IAAF if an athlete has gender dysphoria?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletic...terone-tested/
    It is about biology and how it determines the competition categories. Bermon does not speak for everyone in the IAAF or the athletes who will be beneficiaries of science being applied to ensure fair competition. It's "about" the women who need a category that protects their interests. Bermon has probably said a dozen obnoxious things that have nothing to do with the task at hand.
     

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    #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella2 View Post
    It is unethical to make women with DSD take hormones when they are not needed. It is unethical to treat a woman with DSD as male.

    As for her advantage, yea it is in question. Because I have yet to see any scientific report that proves her DSD gives her an advantage. If this exists, please share it.

    What you see with your eyes on TV isn't scientific evidence I'm afraid.(bit like these 'doctors' diagnosing anorexia, a mental health disorder, via a TV screen. )
    Agreed pt. 1: no pharmaceutical treatment should be asked of anyone.
    Disagreement on pt.2 is on the begged question that a XY person with 5-ARD should be considered a male with DSD or a female with DSD. Actually appreciated Ato stating the fact: XY with high levels of testosterone, MSM has not been that blunt very often.

    Disagreement that scientific (by which I think you mean statistical) report to prove DSD gives an advantage is necessary, being that it is an impossible task to collect the data on such a small sample size. Postulated advantage is completely obvious on male-female difference. Certain if a scientist wanted to take the time to expand the theory that a person with no female sex organs, male sex organs, high levels of testosterone, and male skeleton had an advantage over females it could be done. But most of us are like engineers, we don't need exact numbers for the effect, but just a rule of thumb for something obvious.
     

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    #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella2 View Post
    It is unethical to make women with DSD take hormones when they are not needed. It is unethical to treat a woman with DSD as male.

    As for her advantage, yea it is in question. Because I have yet to see any scientific report that proves her DSD gives her an advantage. If this exists, please share it.

    What you see with your eyes on TV isn't scientific evidence I'm afraid.(bit like these 'doctors' diagnosing anorexia, a mental health disorder, via a TV screen. )
    'doctors'? That's a new low. You are nowhere near possessing the educational, professional, or intellectual qualifications of those you're demeaning. If you were, you'd have responded by stating your own qualifications to be discussing the matter, but having none, you act like a contestant on the Jerry Springer show.

    You are the expert on everything and will say anything to promote your point of view. You are not to be taken seriously, something you continue demonstrating nearly every time you blow off on this issue.


    What's left to say?
    Last edited by trackCanuck; 07-02-2019 at 10:35 PM.
     

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    #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    I have seen zero medical experts who consider Semenya male, outside of the IAAF "experts" and I have seen experts from many countries weigh in on this on Twitter. She is considered female by all of them.

    She may well be a female who has too much of an advantage because of her intersex traits to compete fairly in the female category for sport, but it is not necessary to try and turn her into a man to say that.
    The medical experts are in a state of "transition" over the past few decades on the definition of what exactly is a "female" for the purposes of sport classification.

    Through the last 20 years of "transition" we have now reached the state where there is not an MD capable of stating the obvious for fear that they will cross the Orwellian rubicon and be exposed as out of step with the inner party. And in this Orwellian world we live, there are no biological facts that can stand on their own, and no judgements that can come from those plain facts as they once did, only political and social "facts" that are delivered from on high by "experts" that have been fully vetted for public speech.

    Winston Smith has a vague remembrance of how it used to be but they are dim and misty memories of what was sent down the memory hole.

    We live in a time when grown adult educated men are incapable of stating the most obvious facts of what constitutes a female participant in track and field. We are left with children screaming "traitor" into the ears of the educated. We are doomed.
    Last edited by user4; 07-02-2019 at 09:19 PM.
     

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    #66
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    Meanwhile some are still a bit tone deaf...


    We live in a time when grown adult educated men are incapable of stating the most obvious facts of what constitutes a female participant in track and field.....
     

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    #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella2 View Post
    Thank you and exactly. I have seen the same stuff on Twitter - I follow you! - and have seen all the medical community stand firm in support of Semenya, including world experts from all over the globe, not just RSA. The posters on these forums are just too blinkered and narrow minded to understand and see this though.
    Other than (maybe) one poster, I don't remember anyone on this forum who considers Semenya to be a man. Maybe on other forums, but not here. Same with people wanting to prohibit her because of what she looks like. Maybe on other forums, but not very much here. Most of the commentary here has been said many times,

    1. Semenya is a she,
    2. She has done nothing wrong,
    3. She is xy with t-levels well above the present IAAF (or whoever sets the upper level) standards for a female athlete,
    4. While we cannot measure the advantage, if any, that #3 gives her, it is likely there is an advantage,
    5. It is an advantage the other female athletes, who are xx with "normal" (whatever that is) t levels do not have, and
    6. Wherever we set the line with regards to what qualifies someone to compete as a female, we will always be faced with the issue of how to handle the person who is one millimeter over the line.

    We can say it until we are blue in the face (and some have), I wish Semenya well but believe she should not compete in the female category ... not because she is Semanya, but because she is xy with above the limit t levels. I would say that about any female athlete in any event, regardless of her body type or gender viewpoints.

    That being said, she is allowed to compete, and I hope she continues to be the best she can.
    Last edited by bobguild76; 07-02-2019 at 09:57 PM.
     

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    #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conor Dary View Post
    Meanwhile some are still a bit tone deaf...


    We live in a time when grown adult educated men are incapable of stating the most obvious facts of what constitutes a female participant in track and field.....
    They just need to be brought into room 101 for a few lessons to get their tones right. Lesson 1) XY=Female. Lesson 2) 2+2=5. - OBrien.
    Last edited by user4; 07-02-2019 at 10:49 PM.
     

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    #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella2 View Post
    1. It is unethical to make women with DSD take hormones when they are not needed.
    2. It is unethical to treat a woman with DSD as male.
    1. & 2. True and true,
    but
    3. It is unethical to allow XY individuals with high t-levels to compete at par with XX people with much lower t-levels.

    The only logical solution is to let her compete against individuals comparably advantaged.
     

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    #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    The only logical solution is to let her compete against individuals comparably advantaged.
    Except the pool of such individuals is way too small for it to be anywhere nearly as competitive (and therefore as interesting to most fans) as either the men's or the women's division.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...
     

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