Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    #31
    If we accept the premise that the non-big three 800m runners have been disadvantaged for the last several years, I was thinking of the forms that disadvantage has taken.

    1) The first, obvious, way is they lost a lot of races they might have won, lost prize and appearance money, and endorsements.

    2) Beyond that, Eugene demonstrated other disadvantages. Second through fifth were 1:58-1:59. Only one runner in the race benefitted from the requested 56.5 pacesetter.

    3) The other runners, in order to try to win the race, have to run faster than optimum just to maintain contact. Look at the splits: 2-5 slowed by 2.5 seconds on average.

    4) IAAF is creating a ranking system with performance points based on placings and scoring tables. Those scoring tables are revised annually based on marks that include the controversial athletes. The other marks are devalued for overall ranking points inside the 800 and within world rankings.

    I'm sure there are other disadvantages, but I am tired of the last (almost?) decade, and hope there is a resolution soon. Then I can either ignore W800 or watch races on a level playing field.
     

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    #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    her right to compete against women is somehow an LGBT rights issue, when it's actually nothing of the sort.
    I agree 100% with that perspective. This has nothing to do with freedom of expression or gender-identity rights, it has to do with unfair restraint of trade. The women are being denied prize money, because the intersex competitor (admittedly through no fault of her own) is competing with a substantial advantage. The rights of the many are being violated by the few. Until we can sort this out, she should not be competing against non-intersex women.
     

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    #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    I guess Semenya's got pretty good PR people, who managed to convince many of the liberal crowd that her right to compete against women is somehow an LGBT rights issue, when it's actually nothing of the sort.
    It's an LGBT rights issue for the you are completely the sex you identify as group.
     

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by moreover View Post
    It's an LGBT rights issue for the you are completely the sex you identify as group.
    In this case not biologically, which is all that should count on the track . . .
     

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    #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksf View Post
    What's the difference between Semenya and Stella Walsh?
    I don't know the technical differences but Walsh was not discovered to be male until her death long after s/he retired.
     

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    #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    I don't know the technical differences but Walsh was not discovered to be male until her death long after s/he retired.
    And when that fact was discovered, all her records were retroactively struck from the books.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...
     

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    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    You are right about two things: 1) we are not her doctor, but in my experience, females with anorexia are usually in denial, and as long as she's running well, she can keep the worriers at bay, but then comes the crash, with hospitalization, and 2) large throwers aren't singled out for their girth (some NFLers look like heart-attacks waiting to happen), but the difference is they are highly fit individuals. I have never had a problem with large throwers; I've had major problems with females who got too thin. .
    And therein lies your patriarchal hypocrisy (and I don't mean that in a nasty way). KK is a highly fit individual, just like the male throwers. And yet you are concerned by her build (and are diagnosing a mental health disorder!) and you are concerned about her developing complications...and yet have no problem with overweight male throwers who may develop problems. Ah, they're just big fit macho men aren't they? Go check the number of underweight female athletes that have died an early death and compare to the number of overweight male throwers that have died an early death, and come back to me. Because I can say with conviction that many, many more overweight male throwers will have passed earlier than female long distance runners, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    As for Semenya, I'm sure she's a great person, and as an intersex, she identifies as a female, which is natural given her lack of external genitalia. But when she steps on the track, she's at a tremendous physical advantage, to the point where it's simply not fair to women with 'normal' t-counts. It's not Semenya's fault, and we all sympathize with her position, doing what she loves, running fast, but . . . in this case . . . it IS interfering with others' 'pursuit of happiness' because they simply can't compete with her physiological advantage. The greater good, here, is to keep her out of female-only (i.e., not intersex) competition.
    The problem I have with this ^^^ is she has been accepted as female with DSD by the vast majority of the established medical community and in law, whether the IAAF likes it or not. It isn't a straightforward topic I know, it is complex and it has many medical, moral and ethical considerations. However, the IAAF cannot try and undo something that has already been established i.e. that she is female with DSD, just because they have a different scientific view.

    Thankfully most of mainstream medicine and science takes an ethical approach and considers more than just chromosomes or testosterone. Ethics and medicine are entwined and rightly so in a civilised world.

    And we should not overplay her supposed advantage without any solid scientific evidence, of which we have yet to see.
     

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    #38
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    Why are you only talking of MALE throwers, though? There are just as many female ones who are clearly overweight. You're picking on one sex and then accusing everyone else of sexual discrimination.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...
     

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    #39
    The problem I have with this ^^^ is she has been accepted as female with DSD by the vast majority of the established medical community...
    Vast majority of which medical community? South Africa?

    The vast majority of the world's medical community have not been surveyed on this.

    ...and in law
    Which is irrelevant to the physical advantages of having XY chromosomes and male-level testosterone. Human-written law cannot change the laws of physics and biology.
     

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    #40
    Go check the number of underweight female athletes that have died an early death and compare to the number of overweight male throwers that have died an early death, and come back to me. Because I can say with conviction that many, many more overweight male throwers will have passed earlier than female long distance runners, period.
    Can you name any overweight male throwers who died of an overweight-related disease before they retired from elite competition?

    I agree that those who don't lose the excess weight after they retire will have an elevated risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes, but that is greatly mitigated while they're still training hard.
     

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