Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    #11
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    Personally, it does not bother me as long as it is open and known and not hidden - masculinity and femininity lines are not strictly drawn.
    But the line has to be strictly drawn somewhere if men and women are to compete separately in sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post
    Curious to know how the IAAF's testosterone level was arrived at as 'normal.'
    They looked at the testosterone range for medically healthy males, and in their database of thousands of female track & field athletes (who had their t-levels measured as part of the drug testing protocol), and set the max female level above triple the level of the top 1% of women in their database, or just below the male range. Bear in mind that the women in their database of professional and international athletes probably already have higher testosterone (as a group) than the general female population.

    After CAS suspended the testosterone rule and the IAAF did further studies, they cut the testosterone limit in half to 5 nmol/L. See https://www.sportsintegrityinitiativ...t-regulations/
    In its Explanatory Notes, it argues that the normal range of female testosterone in serum is between 0.12 nmol/L and 1.79 nmol/L, while women with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (POS) could have circulating testosterone up to 4.8 nmol/L. ‘Therefore, the only female athletes competing with levels above 5 nmol/L would be intersex/DSD athletes, doped athletes, and athletes with adrenal or ovarian tumours’, it argues.

    In the Explanatory Notes, the IAAF justifies that 5 nmol/L limit as necessary because it argues that below 5 nmol/L, ‘there is limited evidence of any material testosterone dose-response’, and because ‘an increase in circulating testosterone from normal female range up to between 5 and 10 nmol/L delivers a clear performance advantage’.

    ...

    The DSD Regulations seek to cover athletes with one of seven DSDs who wish to compete in international female competition. As the title of the Regulations suggest, this includes anyone with a ‘difference of sexual development’, or to use a more scientific term, anyone who falls into the 46,XY DSD category. According to a 2014 study, such disorders are rare in the general population (a frequency of less than 1 in 20,000), but more common in elite sport (1 in 421 female athletes), where people with genetic advantages (longer stride, greater height, bigger hands or feet) can excel.
    Last edited by 18.99s; 04-18-2019 at 10:23 AM.
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    #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18.99s View Post
    Being 25 years old is natural. But at 25 you don't get to compete in under-20 or over-35 competitions.

    Many people weigh over 200 lbs naturally. But they don't get to wrestle or box in the featherweight division.

    Having two functioning legs is natural. But that means you don't get to compete in events for one-leg amputees.

    This isn't about whether athletes with hyperandrogenism should be allowed to compete; it's about whether they should be allowed to compete in women's events. If you have male-level testosterone coming from internal or external testicles, you should compete with the men. That may mean you won't be world class, but nobody has a right to be placed into a less-advantaged division than what fits their physiology so they can be world class.
    Why is this simple concept so difficult to comprehend?
    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
    by Thomas Henry Huxley
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    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pego View Post
    Why is this simple concept so difficult to comprehend?
    Good critical thinking skills are a rare commodity.
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    #14
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    My blog has been way ahead on this!!
    Since about 3 or 4 years ago, I've been ignoring all marks---for records or lists--made by Caster Semenya, Margaret Wambui, and Francine Nyonsaba!!

    Their names are NOT to be found anywhere in my Record Book---or in any of my blog posts where I report results---which means most of them!!

    Grateful to have led the way!!

    LOL
    Last edited by aaronk; 04-18-2019 at 01:54 PM.
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    #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pego View Post
    Why is this simple concept so difficult to comprehend?

    Quote Originally Posted by trackCanuck View Post
    Good critical thinking skills are a rare commodity.
    seldom in the normal course of human culture does seeing the obvious seem such an uncommon skill. Im going to mark 18.99 down as delivering one of the best posts of the year.
    Last edited by user4; 04-18-2019 at 01:56 PM.
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pego View Post
    Why is this simple concept so difficult to comprehend?
    Because defining what a 'woman' is is not so simple.
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by trackCanuck View Post
    Good critical thinking skills are a rare commodity.
    So now insults! Don't be triggered.
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    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18.99s View Post
    If you have male-level testosterone coming from internal or external testicles, you should compete with the men.
    The problem (as I understand it) is that intersex women can have, for example, FOUR times the t-levels of other women, but men have TEN times as much, so they're in no-mans-land (unintentional pun) as far as trying to compete fairly with ANYone. And I'm guessing each case is different.

    So even if we created an Intersex division, we'd never get an even playing field. They often find that case in the Paralympics, where the level of disability varies greatly.
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 18.99s View Post
    But the line has to be strictly drawn somewhere if men and women are to compete separately in sports.
    Yes, and that is the problem when dealing with nature which does not strictly draw lines. When you have two generalized categories like 'woman' and 'men' which is strictly a vague dichotomy built around generalized impressions representing natures variety what do you expect. The below information proves my point. Thanks for the detailed info which is a great step in the direction of drawing these lines. These types of issues and details are what is needed in these discussions.

    They looked at the testosterone range for medically healthy males, and in their database of thousands of female track & field athletes (who had their t-levels measured as part of the drug testing protocol), and set the max female level above triple the level of the top 1% of women in their database, or just below the male range. Bear in mind that the women in their database of professional and international athletes probably already have higher testosterone (as a group) than the general female population.

    After CAS suspended the testosterone rule and the IAAF did further studies, they cut the testosterone limit in half to 5 nmol/L. See https://www.sportsintegrityinitiativ...t-regulations/
    I think that is reasonable even though some might get left out. But my personal feeling is that even the rare outliers should be able to compete unless there should be a new category. Putting her in the 'male' category would be a disadvantage.

    Letting only the people in the 'normal' range is foolish which is good to see that the IAAF found the upper limit of normal and then uped that even more - that was a good call in my opinion.
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    The problem (as I understand it) is that intersex women can have, for example, FOUR times the t-levels of other women, but men have TEN times as much, so they're in no-mans-land (unintentional pun) as far as trying to compete fairly with ANYone. And I'm guessing each case is different.

    So even if we created an Intersex division, we'd never get an even playing field. They often find that case in the Paralympics, where the level of disability varies greatly.
    Exactly! But hey you need critical thinking skills to see how simple it is. Duh! IAAF should not of even had to do any studies.
    Last edited by proofs in the pudd'in; 04-18-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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