CAS upholds IAAF testo rule [Swiss court says no re Semenya] [then yes, then no]

[18.99s]

I'm not the only one who has said that in a better world there would be a solution that allowed people in this situation to compete with each other. And some people think that is not a solution and that these women should be able to compete in the female category. There aren't enough of these athletes to fill a competition in any event, for the time being.

It's nothing to celebrate when a person with such talent gets stuck with a different biochemical makeup and finds no room on the bus. For now I don't see any way out of it.

It is nothing to celebrate, but I don't see it as a situation with no room on the bus for them. They are free to compete with the men in any event. The particular individuals currently affected might not have the potential to be competitive with elite men, but that is also true of the vast majority of athletically above average men who were unable to reach the elite ranks, which includes most of us on this message board.

The reasons we have not seen any 46XY DSD athletes posting male-level elite times are rarity, privacy, and gender identity, not a biological ceiling on the capabilities of 46XY DSD athletes.

1. Rarity
Estimates of the prevalence of 46 XY DSD indicate there are less than 1 million people with it in the world. For argument's sake, let's say a full 1 million, of whom 500,000 are in the age range for elite sports. But they are randomly scattered around the world, not concentrated in a track-savvy country like Jamaica or Kenya. If you randomly picked 500,000 men around the world from age 18-40, you probably won't pick even one who is in the top 50 for any event in track & field. Such men are rarer than 1 in a million globally.

But if the world had a billion people with 46XY DSD, some of them would be posting times in the elite range for males.

2. Privacy
Some don't want people to know about their condition, and competition in high level sports could expose them, so they stay out of such competition to maintain their privacy. Others may be dominating another women's sport that doesn't have DSD regulations, and they've managed to keep their condition private, or they personally don't even know they have the condition.

3. Gender Identity.
Some with 46XY DSD choose to live as male, even having surgery to descend the internals if that is physically possible and medically available to them, so they don't compete in women's sports. There could be a sub-4 miler or 10.1 sprinter out there who was born with 46XY DSD but they wouldn't raise eyebrows because they're competing in men's races.

[trackCanuck]

It is nothing to celebrate, but I don't see it as a situation with no room on the bus for them. They are free to compete with the men in any event. The particular individuals currently affected might not have the potential to be competitive with elite men, but that is also true of the vast majority of athletically above average men who were unable to reach the elite ranks, which includes most of us on this message board.

Some kind of freedom that is. These people are a distinct category and most certainly, not "might", do not have the potential to compete with men. To say that is disingenuous. The facts as they've been made evident so far speak clearly for themselves.

[Pego]

It is nothing to celebrate, but I don't see it as a situation with no room on the bus for them. They are free to compete with the men in any event. The particular individuals currently affected might not have the potential to be competitive with elite men, but that is also true of the vast majority of athletically above average men who were unable to reach the elite ranks, which includes most of us on this message board.

The reasons we have not seen any 46XY DSD athletes posting male-level elite times are rarity, privacy, and gender identity, not a biological ceiling on the capabilities of 46XY DSD athletes.

1. Rarity
Estimates of the prevalence of 46 XY DSD indicate there are less than 1 million people with it in the world. For argument's sake, let's say a full 1 million, of whom 500,000 are in the age range for elite sports. But they are randomly scattered around the world, not concentrated in a track-savvy country like Jamaica or Kenya. If you randomly picked 500,000 men around the world from age 18-40, you probably won't pick even one who is in the top 50 for any event in track & field. Such men are rarer than 1 in a million globally.

But if the world had a billion people with 46XY DSD, some of them would be posting times in the elite range for males.

2. Privacy
Some don't want people to know about their condition, and competition in high level sports could expose them, so they stay out of such competition to maintain their privacy. Others may be dominating another women's sport that doesn't have DSD regulations, and they've managed to keep their condition private, or they personally don't even know they have the condition.

3. Gender Identity.
Some with 46XY DSD choose to live as male, even having surgery to descend the internals if that is physically possible and medically available to them, so they don't compete in women's sports. There could be a sub-4 miler or 10.1 sprinter out there who was born with 46XY DSD but they wouldn't raise eyebrows because they're competing in men's races.

This is a voice of reason. Clear, concise, non-argumentative.

[18.99s]

Some kind of freedom that is. These people are a distinct category and most certainly, not "might", do not have the potential to compete with men. To say that is disingenuous.

If every 46XY DSD person in the world grew up in a track-enthused country with top-notch coaching, some would be running times on a level with elite men. We just haven't seen them at that level because of the reasons I described above.

[Wiederganger]

It is nothing to celebrate, but I don't see it as a situation with no room on the bus for them. They are free to compete with the men in any event. The particular individuals currently affected might not have the potential to be competitive with elite men, but that is also true of the vast majority of athletically above average men who were unable to reach the elite ranks, which includes most of us on this message board.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post, but not this part. To say they are free to compete with men, when they have grown & developed within society as women, is grossly simplistic and insensitive, and just not a viable solution.

[DrJay]

This is a voice of reason. Clear, concise, non-argumentative.

What Pego said.

[trackCanuck]

If every 46XY DSD person in the world grew up in a track-enthused country with top-notch coaching, some would be running times on a level with elite men. We just haven't seen them at that level because of the reasons I described above.

Semenya (and probably Jelimo) represent the cream of the crop thus far at 1:54, and you would have us believe that they are actually dreadful runners compared to the missing 1:42 gals we haven't yet seen. Alrighty then.

[18.99s]

Semenya (and probably Jelimo) represent the cream of the crop thus far at 1:54, and you would have us believe that they are actually dreadful runners compared to the missing 1:42 gals we haven't yet seen. Alrighty then.

1:54 isn't easy. In some states that's good enough to get on the podium at the high school state championships in the boys' 800m. Only a few thousand men in the world can run 1:54 or faster.

With a global population base of 46XY DSD in the hundreds of thousands, scattered around the globe rather than concentrated in a track-savvy country, with maybe half or more self-removing from women's sports for the reasons I mentioned in that earlier long post, 1:54 seems like a good statistical expectation for the best of such a limited and scattered population size, if they have exactly the same distribution of athletic potential as unambiguous males globally.

[bambam1729]

What Pego said.

Ditto

[scottmitchell74]

It's nothing to celebrate when a person with such talent gets stuck with a different biochemical makeup and finds no room on the bus.

But a man with those times wouldn't be considered talented...not at the international or national level.