Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    This debate is becoming schoolyard shit. A bunch of guys from the 20th century bullying someone who considers themselves a woman, as if your opinion matters most. Welcome to 2019 men...you're going to lose.
    Yes, some have expressed animosity towards her, and I think some of it has been a bit pointed. But I don't think anyone here is trying to bully Caster Semenya or anyone else who identifies as a woman. She is who she is, and she has trained long and hard to become the best athlete she can be. I applaud her for that.

    It is simply the contention of many on this board that the combination of her xy and high t levels disqualify her from competing in the female category. Would that decision affect her? Absolutely. But her competing affects every one of her competitors. And in my opinion that isn't a 21st Century, or a 20th Century, or a 19th Century issue. It's a male/female/intersex issue.

    If the powers that be decide to allow her to continue competing in the female category, I will disagree with the decision, but will root for her and every other athlete to do their best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moreover View Post
    The effort of showing competitive advantage, using the proxy of androgen sensitivity, is why they were doing the invasive tests that offend most everyone's sensibility. To rewrite your equation, the simple matter is XY with undescended testes and no ovaries does not equal woman. That should be far enough to keep people with this condition from competing in the female category without the burden of proof of androgenizing effect.
    Again, we know that not everyone with internal testes has any sort of competitive advantage.

    _Semenya_ may well have an unfair advantage.

    But the science clearly shows that those metrics alone do not fairly determine the category.

    As I have stated before, a visual examination of the genitals (no touching necessary), an MRI, and detailed blood work, give the IAAF enough information to determine (as best you can with their flawed fake science) if an athlete who already has a medical diagnosis of one of the five conditions is experiencing an androgenizing effect.

    Sexually assaulting and photographing unconscious minors to do this is not necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18.99s View Post
    No, it's not the men on this message board who are going to lose. Women are going to be the people who lose if the XY high-T DSD athletes aren't kept out of the female division.
    Agreed. Critics can say the IAAF is filled with white, women / transgender - hating men, but who are going to suffer in the end? Not them, not the male athletes.
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    I have lost track of what is fact/fiction regarding Semenya's physical condition.
    Is it established that Semenya has internal testes, no ovaries, no uterus and abnormally high testosterone?
    If so, what more do you need to be DQed as female?
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    Beebee is awake

    Alerting us to virtue

    Benighted we are
    You there, on the motorbike! Sell me one of your melons!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
    Is it established that Semenya has internal testes, no ovaries, no uterus and abnormally high testosterone?
    That is what has finally been confirmed. Not unique. Don't think it's directly stated as you have done. What's admitted is the applicability of the regulations to Semenya and the experience with trying to lower testosterone from 2009-2015 as pretty terrible.
    You can download a redacted version of the 163-page report. Plenty of gems in there.

    This from AthletesCAN (paragraph 115), what are Canadian national female athletes thinking, "self-identification"??:
    • The DSD Regulations are premised on "very rigid binary ideas about sex and gender", while the rest of the world has gradually shifted to "more nuanced recognition of gender: self-identification".
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    Paragraph 292 is closest to direct statement (present case in quote means Semenya):
    292. The IAAF states that unlike in Chand, the present case "is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other 46 XY DSDs), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females".
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    Quote Originally Posted by trackCanuck View Post
    I don't think the IAAF has used those words. What's been reported is that they argued in court that Semenya is biologically male. There is a difference. I think it is accurate to say SHE fails to qualify for the female category. If Semenya sees herself as a female then do not hurl an insulting pronoun. I see no reason why a person should be forced to call themselves something they are not comfortable wearing. But it is right to say "Madam, this category is restricted and you do not qualify."

    The IAAF should be able to define their categories without being told to alter them in order to accomodate individual perceptions of gender identity.
    I know the IAAF hasn't used those words. The words I used weren't intended for the IAAF. Your phrasing I would say is correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuariki View Post
    We all have our opinion in what is a very divisive issue. I am comfortable with my position.

    When I was in a position to do so, that is in being able to influence government policy and law, I have always fought for the rights of the LGBT transgender.

    However that support ceases when it comes to non women competing in sport as a woman.

    semenya does not meet the definition of at least what I consider a woman to be. I'm on the side of the millions and millions who have been discriminated against be the PC brigade who are destroying women's sport by allowing non women to compete as a woman.
    Referring to Semenya as a man is simply juvenile and/or shows significant naiveté to her situation.
    Last edited by NotDutra5; 06-23-2019 at 05:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18.99s View Post
    No, it's not the men on this message board who are going to lose. Women are going to be the people who lose if the XY high-T DSD athletes aren't kept out of the female division.
    Correct. If, in a situation such as Semenya continues to be allowed to compete, the women's category within the sport could potentially deteriorate.
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