Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    top outdoor mark yes, but remember Suhr jumped 16-6 indoors.
    Should be a great competition in Rio.
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    #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandfman View Post
    USATF now follows IAAF rule on this. See the note at the bottom of USATF Rule 261.1
    Yes, the note following USATF Rule 261.1(f) is brand-new for 2016 (adopted at the Dec. 2015 annual meeting in Houston), which brings USATF into conformity with the IAAF on this matter, as gh wrote. I think that the IAAF first accepted indoor performances as absolute WRs beginning in about the year 2000.

    I agree with the esteemed gh that it is desirable to have USATF in sync with IAAF on this question, but my personal opinion is that neither governing body should have done away with separate outdoor records. I believe that there is perhaps more lack of conformity among indoor facilities, e.g. bouncy elevated jump & vault runways. I know that I am not the only one who is of the opinion that real T&F is done outdoors.

    But that ship has sailed. At least we can still maintain our own statistics separated by indoors and outdoors.
    Last edited by Charley Shaffer; 07-25-2016 at 06:07 AM. Reason: typo
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    Well then I guess it doesn't matter if the runway was downhill or not since it doesn't count for anything anyway.
    It does count statistically, if the facility is ok. if it were shown to be downhill, the statisticians would reject the mark, just as they do when a throwing event landing area turns out to be downhill.
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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charley Shaffer View Post
    Y... I believe that there is perhaps more lack of conformity among indoor facilities, e.g. bouncy elevated jump & vault runways. ....
    The rules now read that "sprung" runways are illegal, and in the modern synthetic-track era, I believe that athe bouncy runway is now pretty much a thing of the past.
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    #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    The rules now read that "sprung" runways are illegal, and in the modern synthetic-track era, I believe that athe bouncy runway is now pretty much a thing of the past.
    I should have written with more clarity--I wasn't referring to any runways that may have had springs inside them; I was referring to any elevated indoor-type runways constructed box-style, with a top, 2 sides, and perhaps a bottom. My eyes can often see those runways depress and rebound under footfalls--much more than any synthetic surface laid directly on the floor or ground. That's why I have more respect for jump & vault records set outdoors on regular outdoor runways.

    But that's just my personal belief. I'm not attempting to fight the rules.
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    #26
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    Ever the luddite, I have a question. Has it, can it be calculated how much a "sprung" or bouncy runway helps a horizontal jumper or PVer? When the jumper hits a solid fixed board or the PV plants in a solid fixed box, what difference does the run up make?

    I suspect this is more perception than reality, akin to internal movement in a shot.
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    #27
    I believe there's a ball-bearing used test to determine whether or not a track has too much trampoline effect.
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    #28
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    Now I am going to poke the rules-makers a little. Confusing this issue is the fact that USATF still shows separate indoor & outdoor records on their own Web site, rather than "Indoor' and "Absolute."
    http://www.usatf.org/statistics/Records.aspx

    And Suhr's mark of 5.03, made indoors in Jan. 2016, is listed as pending only on their indoor list.

    Do we know if the new-for-2016 USATF rule will be applied retroactively? IIRC, the IAAF chose not do so, preventing Bubka's 6.15i from 1993 from being the official WR, even though it is to this day higher than any mark ever set outdoors.

    AFAICT, the USATF rulebook does not address retroactivity. If indoor marks only from 2016 forward will count as absolute ARs, then the next absolute AR will be Suhr's 5.03i, once ratified. But if for some reason that mark cannot be ratified, then next on the list seems to be 4.95i by Morris at the 2016 USATF Indoor Championships, which should not have any ratification issues.

    So, USATF, get your stuff together! Revise your Web site to show the official "Indoor" and "Absolute" American Records, and clarify whether or not the new rule is retroactive.
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    #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charley Shaffer View Post
    I should have written with more clarity--I wasn't referring to any runways that may have had springs inside them; I was referring to any elevated indoor-type runways constructed box-style, with a top, 2 sides, and perhaps a bottom. My eyes can often see those runways depress and rebound under footfalls--much more than any synthetic surface laid directly on the floor or ground. That's why I have more respect for jump & vault records set outdoors on regular outdoor runways.

    But that's just my personal belief. I'm not attempting to fight the rules.
    a "sprung" runway doesn't ahve springs inside it. It's constructed so that the joists (or whatever the carpentry term is) are in such an orientation as to allow the overlaying surface to flex (think of a sheet of plywood 6 feet long with no cross pieces).
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    #30
    I've said it (many times) before, and I'll say it again---
    INdoor and OUTdoor are two COMPLETELY SEPARATE seasons, with totally separate Records and Lists!

    I know you all disagree with me, and tell me MY records & lists are products of only MY warped imagination, and have ZERO to do with reality and the rules!

    And I say, Thank God!!!

    I always bring up baseball as an example.
    There are THREE distinct "seasons" in baseball---the Exhibition, Regular, and Post-seasons.
    These seasons have distinct and separate records!
    (Though not certain if Exhibition season records are kept & archived!!)
    You NEVER see any of these seasons combined---either all 3, or any 2 of them!
    Thus, if Player A hits 9 Home Runs in the Exhibition season, then hits 46 HR's during the regular season, and hits 5 HR's post-season, his total will NOT be 60 HR's---the total of all 3 seasons!

    Same with T&F!.
    Lavillenie's 20-2.50 is the INdoor season WR ONLY!!!
    Bubka's 20-1.75 is the OUTdoor WR ONLY!!

    There is no such thing---except in T&FN, IAAF, and USATF's "warped imagination"---as "absolute" or "comprehensive" records!!

    My blog, and the T&F Record Book on which my blog is based, TOTALLY SEPARATES the INdoor and OUTdoor seasons!

    So if you're a "purist", and want DEFINITIVE records and lists for EACH season, come read my blog!

    As for the "springy" runway for Morris, wasn't the old wooden track in Madison Square Garden "springy"?
    As I recall, you could SEE the boards "bounce" as runners ran around it!!
    Last edited by aaronk; 07-25-2016 at 06:37 PM.
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