Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Okay, in the USA, does the performance qualifying standard trump the top-32 qualifying standard?

    For example–in the men's discus, the US champion, Jared Schuurmans (66,10m), has hit the performance standard of 65,00m so he's in.

    The 2nd (Russ Winger 64,34m) and 3rd (Andrew Evans 63,91m) placers do not have the performance standard (no headwinds today at NACAC) BUT they are both in the top-32 on the world list (32nd is 63,34m) so they qualify for the Worlds according to the IAAF.

    Both 4th placer Rodney Brown (65,04m) and 7th placer Chase Madison (65,42m) have the performance standard.

    Does Winger's NACAC win move him ahead of Madisonas the Area Champion?

    Who should go?
    Who will go?
    From what I understand, seems like Brown and Madison go.
    Is it written in USATF bylaws that performance trumps top-32?

    add: Our Throwholics reporter on site at NACAC says Winger is on the WC team. (video interview)
    Last edited by NormZylstra; 08-08-2015 at 01:04 AM.
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    Snippets from the USATF guidelines have been posted a few times on different threads, but the bottom line is that place at USATF trumps everything else. So per the guidelines Schuurmans and Winger are in and Madison is definitely out. Schuurmans because he won and has a auto qualifier. Winger because he finished in the top three and won at NACAC today (which is considered a qualifier as well). The only question is whether Evans maintains a place on the top 32 list. If he does he is in as well.
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    From Duffy Mahoney, "It's only relevant if there aren't enough people who have attained the standard."

    • "It's" being the top-32 list.
    • "standard" mean distance standard, 65m.

    So for the USATF, performance marks trump competitive results.
    Last edited by NormZylstra; 08-09-2015 at 01:09 AM.
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    the way I read it, if Evans is in the top 32, Brown can't displace him, even with a Q.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormZylstra View Post
    From Duffey Mahoney, "It's only relevant if there aren't enough people who have attained the standard."

    • "It's" being the top-32 list.
    • "standard" mean distance standard, 65m.

    So for the USATF, performance marks trump competitive results.
    That is in direct opposition to the written procedures.
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    In some events, the IAAF may invite athletes based on the IAAF ranking lists in order to reach the target number of competitors for each event as listed by the IAAF for the 2015 IAAF World Championships. USATF shall accept any invitations extended to U.S. athletes if such acceptance does not displace an athlete who has finished ahead of the invited athlete(s) at the Trials and who has met the qualifying standard or who is also in a position to receive an IAAF invitation. In the event that one or more of the top three placers in the Trials has not met the qualifying standard but has a performance that appears to be good enough to warrant an invitation based on the ranking list and number of known qualifiers, USATF may solicit an invitation from the IAAF for that athlete(s) notwithstanding that other U.S. athletes have met the qualifying standard.


    The intent is that, to the extent possible, the order of finish at the U. S. Championships shall determine whether an athlete competes in the World Championships.


    There will be no invitations through the use of the ranking lists in the 5,000m, 10,000m, race walk and marathon.


    So I am posting this one more time.

    And also since I am apparently not smart enough to bold anything I have left the important part by itself
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    Madison and Brown don't need to be top 32, as they have Q-standard marks.

    So here's the question: if it comes down to somebody with a lower place having a Q vs. a higher placer who is in only with the top-32 stricture, what's USATF's protocol?
    Quote Originally Posted by tandfman View Post
    I believe USATF would choose the higher placer. There's obviously a tricky matter of timing, but I assume (or at least I hope) they have a plan for dealing with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by norunner View Post
    ...There is no removal of any athlete from any list. Madison and Brown have thrown over 65m, so they can be selected by USATF, there is no need to make room for them, they have a guaranteed spot in Beijing IF USATF selects them... all USATF can do is not select Madison and Brown and hope for Winger and Evans to be among the top 32.
    Quote Originally Posted by tandfman View Post
    ... I do think that USATF won't finalize their entry until they're pretty sure they know whether not selecting Winger and/or Evans would make room for another American. I doubt if they'd leave it up to hope. All this may be mooted by what happens in at the NACAC meet this weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by NormZylstra View Post
    From Duffey Mahoney, "It's only relevant if there aren't enough people who have attained the standard."
    • "It's" being the top-32 list.
    • "standard" mean distance standard, 65m.
    So for the USATF, performance marks trump competitive results.
    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    the way I read it, if Evans is in the top 32, Brown can't displace him, even with a Q.
    Quote Originally Posted by donley2 View Post
    That is in direct opposition to the written procedures.
    Someone with some juice may want to get in touch with USATF. Duffy Mahoney (Managing Director of High Performance Programs 317-713-4673) seems to be in error.
    Last edited by NormZylstra; 08-09-2015 at 05:12 AM.
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    I claim no inside info but it is possible whoever wrote the selection procedures did not, at the time, understand that invitations from the IAAF could not be solicited before the selection deadline.

    If solicitations based on rankings are out, and if USATF goes ahead and fills out an event based on available Qs, then the part about accepting any invitations extended based on rankings becomes irrelevant, because IAAF will not extend any such invite if a federation has already filled out its event by selection.
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    T&F News, when you write:

    "2015 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS TEAM USA
    Athletes in parentheses have NOT met the WC standard..."

    Are you including the IAAF standard of Filling the Fields (ie. top-32 for field events) as a 'WC standard'?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormZylstra View Post
    T&F News, when you write:

    "2015 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS – TEAM USA
    Athletes in parentheses have NOT met the WC standard..."

    Are you including the IAAF standard of Filling the Fields (ie. top-32 for field events) as a 'WC standard'?
    No.........................
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