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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    going back to the original post, which concluded << I know there is nothing on the books to incriminate them but jesus this is insane,>> allow me to note that there has been lots of interesting speculation here, but the bottom line for us remains that the times from the two National Games in question remain so far outside the parameters of normalcy that we simply will not recognize them.

    As noted a bazillion times before, when one person does something totally off the wall, that's an outlier. When a whole bunch of people do the same thing on a one-time (or in this case two times, but separated by many years, with different players) basis, then there's something fishy. And in this case, fishy enough for us to yank the marks from consideration.

    And I hasten to add, just like Flo and everybody else in the two Indy races with "0.0" wind readings—we know no national boundaries when it comes to sniffing out things that fail the common-sense test.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated that seems to point away from PEDs. Similarly, people talk about a steroid area in baseball when about average home runs were being hit... as if PEDs were in baseball during some small window in time. I would say the big home run seasons were not due to PEDs but to a live ball (or other factor), otherwise we'd still have multiple 50+ home run seasons. MLB needed the numbers to wash over the strike and make the business profitable... and they succeeded on the backs of hundreds of home runs.
    Just the opposite. You may as well say, "because no one has come near the men's shot put world record and because we know that doping still happens today, PEDs must not be the prime factor in the world record."

    The difference between now and then is that you can't get away with nearly as much. Tests have clearly gotten better and out of competition testing has become much more comprehensive in the last two decades.

    The fox was watching the hen house at the National Games in 1993 and 1997 and you had a group of women who trained very, very hard (40km hard daily, and only the strong survived) and were given every other means of assistance known to man. You'll never see that combination again.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson
    a group of women who trained very, very hard (40km hard daily, and only the strong survived) and were given every other means of assistance known to man. You'll never see that combination again.
    And that's the truly unfortunate part here. Those women WERE talented and trained hard. To dismiss their accomplishments without proof is a very hard thing to do, but I agree with T&FN's policy.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson
    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated...
    Just the opposite. You may as well say, "because no one has come near the men's shot put world record and because we know that doping still happens today, PEDs must not be the prime factor in the world record."
    But I wouldn't say "no one has come near the men's shot put world record". Barnes and Timmerman are within inches. We have an Italian, Swiss, some Germans and US Americans in the mix throwing 22.50m+ different years at different venues. It's not the same as a group of compatriots in two national meets knocking out outlier times.
    If we had a meet with only US Americans and had 4-5 men over 22.90m, seems like that would be similar to what happen in China.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    The PED abuses of the 70s and 80s were more outrageous and crude (more is better), which is why, even with PED abuse subsequent to that, the marks haven't been approached.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson
    a group of women who trained very, very hard (40km hard daily, and only the strong survived) and were given every other means of assistance known to man. You'll never see that combination again.
    And that's the truly unfortunate part here. Those women WERE talented and trained hard. To dismiss their accomplishments without proof is a very hard thing to do, but I agree with T&FN's policy.
    You're citing a fact not in evidence. It may well be that those who were truly talented were those who put up good marks outside of the two meets.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson
    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated...
    Just the opposite. You may as well say, "because no one has come near the men's shot put world record and because we know that doping still happens today, PEDs must not be the prime factor in the world record."
    But I wouldn't say "no one has come near the men's shot put world record". Barnes and Timmerman are within inches. We have an Italian, Swiss, some Germans and US Americans in the mix throwing 22.50m+ different years at different venues. Not them same as a group of compatriots in two national meets knocking out outlier times.
    If we had a meet with only US Americans and had 4-5 men over 22.90m, seems like that would be similar to what happen in China.
    I wrote men's, but meant women's.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    [quote=Ned Ryerson]
    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    Quote Originally Posted by "Ned Ryerson":114d84sn
    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated...
    Just the opposite. You may as well say, "because no one has come near the men's shot put world record and because we know that doping still happens today, PEDs must not be the prime factor in the world record."
    But I wouldn't say "no one has come near the men's shot put world record". Barnes and Timmerman are within inches. We have an Italian, Swiss, some Germans and US Americans in the mix throwing 22.50m+ different years at different venues. Not them same as a group of compatriots in two national meets knocking out outlier times.
    If we had a meet with only US Americans and had 4-5 men over 22.90m, seems like that would be similar to what happen in China.
    I wrote men's, but meant women's.[/quote:114d84sn]
    No difference, same deal but with different names and geography.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Those women WERE talented and trained hard. To dismiss their accomplishments without proof is a very hard thing to do, but I agree with T&FN's policy.
    You're citing a fact not in evidence. It may well be that those who were truly talented were those who put up good marks outside of the two meets.
    My fact in evidence is that you don't make fine wine from bad grapes.
    To run those times (assuming the PED explanation) you had to be superb to begin with.
    Many of the EG women would have been champions just from the training they did.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by gh
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Those women WERE talented and trained hard. To dismiss their accomplishments without proof is a very hard thing to do, but I agree with T&FN's policy.
    You're citing a fact not in evidence. It may well be that those who were truly talented were those who put up good marks outside of the two meets.
    My fact in evidence is that you don't make fine wine from bad grapes.
    To run those times (assuming the PED explanation) you had to be superb to begin with.
    Many of the EG women would have been champions just from the training they did.
    The age for these chinese women on the 1500m was on avarage well below 20 and even one (Zhang Ling) with a corresponding age like Mary Cain. In hindsight I see, that these chinese women weren't that much faster than the other all-time greats.

    What happened on the 3000m in two septemner 1993 days was much more spectacular.

    Giving the fact, that they were partly teenagers, the spartan regime couldn't have taken much time, but apparently long enough to create such a stellar progression.
    Besides, the same could never have established with men.
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