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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovetorun
    With marks like 3:50.6, 8:06.1 and 29:31 (with a final 5K in 14:26!) I certainly felt that they were cheating in some way. But, like Master Po said...we'll never know...but I think it's a shame that the records can stand when so obviously sham.
    Why cheat? In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow.
    Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.

    1997 has to be seen as the ultimate consequence of Stuttgart 1993 and september 1993.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans Rutten
    In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow.
    Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.
    If it were PEDs (which, of course, I'm not saying it is), wouldn't that also explain the other phenomenal times?
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by Frans Rutten
    In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow.
    Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.
    If it were PEDs (which, of course, I'm not saying it is), wouldn't that also explain the other phenomenal times?
    As far as I can see, PEDs would perfectly explain and no other explanations proposed in the topic were necessary.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #44
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    Some of the women may have had hyperandrogenism without pharmacological intervention.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed gee
    Some of the women may have had hyperandrogenism without pharmacological intervention.
    That's always been a thought to me.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed gee
    Some of the women may have had hyperandrogenism without pharmacological intervention.
    That many at the same time? Too big a coincidence. Plus, if you look at them, there is not that androgynous appearance.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikli
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by Frans Rutten
    In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow. Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.
    If it were PEDs (which, of course, I'm not saying it is), wouldn't that also explain the other phenomenal times?
    As far as I can see, PEDs would perfectly explain and no other explanations proposed in the topic were necessary.
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated that seems to point away from PEDs. Similarly, people talk about a steroid area in baseball when about average home runs were being hit... as if PEDs were in baseball during some small window in time. I would say the big home run seasons were not due to PEDs but to a live ball (or other factor), otherwise we'd still have multiple 50+ home run seasons. MLB needed the numbers to wash over the strike and make the business profitable... and they succeeded on the backs of hundreds of home runs.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushop
    Quote Originally Posted by mikli
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by Frans Rutten
    In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow. Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.
    If it were PEDs (which, of course, I'm not saying it is), wouldn't that also explain the other phenomenal times?
    As far as I can see, PEDs would perfectly explain and no other explanations proposed in the topic were necessary.
    SInce these Chinese performances have not been replicated that seems to point away from PEDs. Similarly, people talk about a steroid area in baseball when about average home runs were being hit... as if PEDs were in baseball during some small window in time. I would say the big home run seasons were not due to PEDs but to a live ball (or other factor), otherwise we'd still have multiple 50+ home run seasons. MLB needed the numbers to wash over the strike and make the business profitable... and they succeeded on the backs of hundreds of home runs.

    But the article linked above, although focused on swimming, implies that there was huge PED usage going on in parts of the 90s, but then the authorities in China cleaned up their act and cracked down on it. Most of the anomolous times came from a single coach, who has also since left the sport. I think this does in fact point towards a heavily targeted PED program.

    Apart from the 93 cohort most CHN athletes didn't compete internationally. I think there was one year in the late 90s when there were a couple of middle distance runners that appeared on the GP circuit but they were profoundly mediocre in their times. It's been mentioned here before but Liu Dong now lives in Spain, married to a Spanish coach - imagine my surprise watching a webcast of one of the Spanish meetings and seeing her running 5 mins in the 1500m :shock:
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
    #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikli
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlow
    Quote Originally Posted by Frans Rutten
    In 1993 Liu Dong already ran unbelievable splits. She ran the second part of her round 4 min. 1500m alone in a 3:41 1500m tempo, after the first 800m had been slow.
    Chinese women overran world class athletes at other distances.
    If it were PEDs (which, of course, I'm not saying it is), wouldn't that also explain the other phenomenal times?
    As far as I can see, PEDs would perfectly explain and no other explanations proposed in the topic were necessary.
    I don't think PEDS do explain the performances, as other athletes who took PEDS and were caught - both from the 70s/80s and the early 00s - have been unable to replicate such times. Decker, for example, was nearly 20 seconds slower than Wang Junxia over 3000 despite her PED use. Even if the Chinese took PEDs there have to be other factors. Two things that struck me watching Wang and the other women in 93 were their hip action and quick cadence - they all had a similar running action. I remember talk about their running technique being inspired by ostriches and deer! Wang herself always looked relaxed and was fantastic to watch. Even vintage Tirunesh Dibaba wouldn't have been able to cope with her.
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    Re: chinese womens 1500 records
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rog
    Two things that struck me watching Wang and the other women in 93 were their hip action and quick cadence - they all had a similar running action. I remember talk about their running technique being inspired by ostriches and deer! Wang herself always looked relaxed and was fantastic to watch.
    So the question is: if their technique was so revolutionary, why has no one replicated it since?
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...
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