as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

[Conor Dary]

If you go to social media to ask scientific questions you deserve all the disrespect you are bound to get....

[polevaultpower]

If you go to social media to ask scientific questions you deserve all the disrespect you are bound to get....

*shrug*

But people do. That's what happens and that plays a big role in where we are today.

If people are serious in reducing measles outbreaks, this is what they must overcome, and fortunately, some recognize this.

[Atticus]

I still don't understand how the AVs rationalize the fact that unless everyone else was getting vaccines, we would indeed be in pandemic conditions with several very serious diseases, killing LOTS of people. How hypocritical is it to expect everyone to do it, but you won't.

[user4]

The major medical principle you don't appear to understand here is that if it were just about YOU, then your stance would be fine. But if you catch it (or even if you don't; you can always be a carrier without being symptomatic), you then risk passing it on to other people, and if they're "rugged individualists" like you, then the whole thing snowballs.

I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.

Particularly with a serious disease, not a take-two-aspirin-and-call-me-in-the-morning one.

Agree certainly for people that are in close contact with others. Those of us who live in urban areas or work in close contact with the general public should heed the warning.

But all people are not living the same life I am forced to live. If you are with your family on a ranch in North Dakota and your contact with strangers is about 1 per year then one size does not fit all and trying to make it fit will cost valuable resources better spent in dense urban areas.

The other concern is that vaccination is only one leg in the stool of public health. Public hygiene is another and in dense urban areas where people are coming and going from all over the world it may be just as effective and necessary.

Lets face it , a society can devout untold resources to universal vaccination but if that society goes back to the stone age and allows public defecation and urination and open needle drug use there will be problems. When an outbreak occurs of typhus (or some other disease) after years of ignoring the most basic established best practices for public health it is easy to deflect and drone on about universal vaccination. But it is only to shift the blame away from the real culprit that is spreading the disease.

[Pego]

Agree certainly for people that are in close contact with others. Those of us who live in urban areas or work in close contact with the general public should heed the warning.

But all people are not living the same life I am forced to live. If you are with your family on a ranch in North Dakota and your contact with strangers is about 1 per year then one size does not fit all and trying to make it fit will cost valuable resources better spent in dense urban areas.

The other concern is that vaccination is only one leg in the stool of public health. A society can devout billions to universal vaccination while that society allows public defecation and urination and open needle drug use. When an outbreak occurs of typhus (or some other disease) after years of ignoring the most basic established best practices for public health it is quite easy to deflect and drone on about universal vaccination to shift the blame away from the real culprit that caused the public health nightmare.

I am breaking my vow not to respond to user4's posts and I will probably regret it, but this above nonsense requires response.

No civilized country "allows public defecation and urination and open needle use." They are not "ignoring the most basic established best practices for public health."

Yes, we need general hygiene principles and we need vaccinations. Neither one is a subject of amateurish or political vacillation. If there ever was need for application of "Pro bono publico", this is it.

[user4]

I am breaking my vow not to respond to user4's posts and I will probably regret it, but this above nonsense requires response.

No civilized country "allows public defecation and urination and open needle use." They are not "ignoring the most basic established best practices for public health."

Yes, we need general hygiene principles and we need vaccinations. Neither one is a subject of amateurish or political vacillation. If there ever was need for application of "Pro bono publico", this is it.

I guess when people agree with me I should be thankful, so Im thankful, but when they agree with me while needing to regret it, I have to scratch my head in wonder at their emotional issue and the need for more ugly facts.

I would welcome anyone here that has had first hand experience in any number of west coast beach communities to tell us if public hygiene laws are enforced as they once were. Even in dense areas of LA are they enforced as they were 40 years ago? Has open public street defecation increased or decreased in the last 20 years ?

My experience on both the east and west coast is that public hygiene laws are not enforced with the rigor they once were.

As I said, public hygiene is one of most important factors in keeping the public safe from communicable disease. And this is the most important factor in densely populated areas where large numbers of people are coming and going. Vaccination is another important factor. Neither one can be ignored.

In order to distance myself from you and help you to feel good about yourself, I would go one step further, and propose that some of the vaccination hysteria and brow beating is due in part to the need to subtly shift the blame away from the lack of enforcement of public hygiene laws.

[tandfman]

New York State has eliminated its religious exemption from vaccination of school kids, and the parents of 26,000 now face "a moment of reckoning".

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/n...ptions-ny.html

[tandfman]

Millions of reasonable discussions may have happened, but on an individual level, individuals are being turned AV by their own personal experiences of being attacked by PVers.

I'm not welcomed in either community.

How can PVers not welcome PVP? :-)

[Conor Dary]

*shrug*

But people do. That's what happens and that plays a big role in where we are today.

If people are serious in reducing measles outbreaks, this is what they must overcome, and fortunately, some recognize this.

That's the problem....most go on the internet to find information that confirms their beliefs....the internet can be great....if you know how to use it.....it makes the smart smarter and the dumb dumber...

[polevaultpower]

That's the problem....most go on the internet to find information that confirms their beliefs....the internet can be great....if you know how to use it.....it makes the smart smarter and the dumb dumber...

But that problem isn't going to go away. We have to adapt.