Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    You don't have to be a clean freak. ..
    The lady doth protest too much methinks
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    We don't know exactly how many infants are getting bowel obstructions linked to the rotavirus vaccine because reporting to VAERS is optional and underreporting is a major problem. Controlled studies have consistently shown it is an issue. It is not a reportable condition to the CDC, they are relying on the optional VAERS reporting to monitor intussusception rates.

    The rotavirus vaccine is largely a convenience vaccine in this country. Very few healthy children die of rotavirus here, but a large number of parents are forced to miss work if their child contracts the disease.

    I think it is great to have the vaccine available for any parent who wants it, as long as they are aware of the small risk of bowel obstructions so that they can more quickly seek medical attention if their infant seems to be having abdominal pain.

    But parents who decline this vaccine (which is mandatory for daycare in a few states) should not be vilified.

    Not every vaccine is the same. It's OK to support mandatory vaccination for most vaccine while questioning whether or not other vaccines should be mandatory in this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower
    It's OK to support mandatory vaccination for most vaccine while questioning whether or not other vaccines should be mandatory in this country.
    We are getting on the same page. Who should decide what should be compulsory and what optional? I say, it should be the experts at CDC. What says you?
    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
    by Thomas Henry Huxley
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pego View Post
    We are getting on the same page. Who should decide what should be compulsory and what optional? I say, it should be the experts at CDC. What says you?
    Ill chime in, what should be compulsory and what should be optional depends on your risks of catching and the risk of you communicating the disease to someone else. This is fantastically dependent on numerous factors not te least of which is whether you are living in a dense urban area.

    To the extent that the CDC ever had the power to enforce any vaccination mandate, and to the extent that the CDC seeks a uniform and absolute rule of vaccination that is to exactly govern the entire US population from Manhattan Kansas to Manhattan NYC then such rules are not scientific they are based on fanciful ideology. No doubt the good people at the CDC know this and it is the reason why the CDC does not make sweeping mandates for all locations and times.

    For instance, if you are a heroin addict living on the streets of San Francisco and you share needles from time to time and you are used to defecating on the sidewalk and eating raw shell fish from a mobile street vendor down by the dock then you should absolutely immediately seek to get your Hepatitis A and B vaccines.

    If however you are living in a 3 acre house lot in a suburban neighborhood in Kansas eating food cooked in your own home by your fastidious and obsessive wife and you have no contact otherwise with IV drug users, fecal matter or raw shell fish then you dont need to rush to your primary care physician to get your Hep A&B shots. You can and should donate to a clean needle program for San Francisco's homeless.

    Ultimately, no person can ever be lawfully compelled to get a vaccine. And they should be free to opt out provided that they are not in risky contact with the public. Any person seeking to place a child on close contact with other children, either at a school or a day care facility must comply with the mandate of the public. You have your freedom but as soon as you seek the services of someone else you must obey the public through local statutes. The public has the right to set the risk standard and mandate vaccines for people that are in very close contact with others in public service facilities.
    Last edited by user4; 03-30-2019 at 09:00 PM.
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    I agree with most of what user4 is saying.

    The CDC thinks I should put antibiotic eye goop in my newborn immediately after birth for an STD that I don't have.

    Then they want me to vaccinate my newborn for hepatitis B, which is practically an STD.

    There are perfectly good reasons for these things. Antibiotic eye ointment can reduce the risk of infant blindness if the mother has gonorrhea. Hep B is very serious in infants.

    But there are downsides too. The ointment causes irritation and blurry vision which can impair bonding and breastfeeding. The Hep B vaccine wears off for many children, and vaccinating as a newborn significantly increases the chance they will lack immunity as a teen and young adult.

    Can a mother who has been tested for gonorrhea and believes her partner has been monogamous reasonably decline the antibiotic eye ointment? My opinion is yes.

    But in the state of New York, they will call CPS if you decline. You do not have a legal right to decline in that state.

    Can the parents of children who have no immediate family members and caregivers with hep B, whose parents and caregivers are not drug users or promiscuous, reasonably delay the hepatitis B vaccine? Well, I think yes. But others believe that they should have the children removed from the home.

    CDC recommendations are based on the worst case scenarios. These are real scenarios. Women show up in the ER with no prenatal care and give birth and disappear with poor followup on care for their newborn. This is a population whose children will benefit from these recommendations.

    But not every child has the same level of risk.

    Every vaccine and every vaccine preventable disease are different. Lumping them all together like they are the same leads to polarization and both sides spreading false information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    I agree with most of what user4 is saying.

    The CDC thinks I should put antibiotic eye goop in my newborn immediately after birth for an STD that I don't have.

    Then they want me to vaccinate my newborn for hepatitis B, which is practically an STD.

    There are perfectly good reasons for these things. Antibiotic eye ointment can reduce the risk of infant blindness if the mother has gonorrhea. Hep B is very serious in infants.

    But there are downsides too. The ointment causes irritation and blurry vision which can impair bonding and breastfeeding. The Hep B vaccine wears off for many children, and vaccinating as a newborn significantly increases the chance they will lack immunity as a teen and young adult.

    Can a mother who has been tested for gonorrhea and believes her partner has been monogamous reasonably decline the antibiotic eye ointment? My opinion is yes.

    But in the state of New York, they will call CPS if you decline. You do not have a legal right to decline in that state.

    Can the parents of children who have no immediate family members and caregivers with hep B, whose parents and caregivers are not drug users or promiscuous, reasonably delay the hepatitis B vaccine? Well, I think yes. But others believe that they should have the children removed from the home.

    CDC recommendations are based on the worst case scenarios. These are real scenarios. Women show up in the ER with no prenatal care and give birth and disappear with poor followup on care for their newborn. This is a population whose children will benefit from these recommendations.

    But not every child has the same level of risk.

    Every vaccine and every vaccine preventable disease are different. Lumping them all together like they are the same leads to polarization and both sides spreading false information.
    I asked a simple question and I will repeat it. No further analysis is necessary.

    "Who should decide on what vaccination is compulsory and what is optional?"
    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
    by Thomas Henry Huxley
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    I'll offer and answer if it wasn't obvious from the longer answer I offered previously: Each adult person should determine the vaccinations that they take. As for children, only the parents should decide.
    The consequences of taking full responsibility for one's life then imply that certain choices are closed to you in certain areas of the country. You may in fact be forced to move out of certain cities where vaccinations are mandated. But ultimately only the person has sovereignty over their body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by user4 View Post
    ...Each adult person should determine the vaccinations that they take. ....
    I'll respectfully (strongly) disagree with you. Public health considerations should always trump "individual rights."

    (disclaimer: a half-century ago I was a Bacteriology & Public Health major)
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    I strongly and respectfully disagree with you because I take public health even more seriously than the universal vaccination advocates do. The public can decide to remove a person from public school if they have reason to believe that the person poses a public health risk. There are ways of addressing the public need. But I strongly suspect that in most areas (cities) where such draconian vaccination enforcement policy could take place such as forced vaccination or removal the city officials are permitting far far greater health risks to go unchecked. This is the reason why most dispassionate observers see , not public health as the goal but rather control and domination. Behavior , such as defecating on street and sleeping on the street and IV drug use go unchecked in most cities and yet we hear the wails and gnashing of teeth about anti vaxers. Lets all get real.
    Last edited by user4; 04-01-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gh View Post
    I'll respectfully (strongly) disagree with you. Public health considerations should always trump "individual rights."
    Should vaccines that do not prevent disease transmission be required?

    Should vaccines against STDs be mandatory?

    We have far more malaria cases than measles cases in the US every year. Should we mandate the malaria vaccine?

    Many countries mandate the meningitis B for infants. You cannot get it in the US until age 16. Should we make it part of the infant vaccine schedule?
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