Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pego View Post
    Not everything. Look at my above post and I agree that TB cannot be blamed on an anti-vaxers.
    That said, they are clearly responsible for plenty of problems and criticism of the movement is not out of proportion.
    I disagree. I think the blame on the anti-vaxers for everything that is not measles is grossly out of proportion with the role they play.

    1. Measles - Measles is super contagious and the vaccine provides excellent long term immunity. The data about the increase in measles cases is being misrepresented in the media, and data about worldwide deaths and cases keeps being presented in misleading was, but hysteria aside, more vaccinations would likely mean smaller outbreaks when foreign cases enter the US.

    2. Mumps - The mumps vaccine wears off for many by their teens. Additional boosters seems to have minimal effectiveness. There are numerous outbreaks documented in fully vaccinated populations such as college dormitories. Former Merck employees have accused Merck in court of falsifying test results for the mumps vaccine, preventing other manufacturers from developing a better mumps vaccine. https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...0YQ0W820150604
    We consistently see the majority of cases of mumps outbreaks coming from vaccinated individuals. Unvaccinated people are more likely to get mumps than the vaccinated, but there is zero evidence to suggest they are playing a large role in the spread of the disease. The primary issue seems to be the vaccine failing.
    You know what would help prevent the spread of mumps (and many other diseases)? Teaching kids to stop sharing water bottles and utensils.

    3. Pertussis - Yeah no one in the scientific community is blaming anti-vaxers for pertussis outbreaks anymore, not even the CDC. Study after study shows that the acellular vaccine used today does an extremely poor job of preventing pertussis, it does a reasonably good job of weakening the symptoms of a fairly serious disease in the person that is vaccinated. Anti-vaxers are setting their kids up to be really sick if they get pertussis, but their really sick kids stay home and end up spreading the disease far less than people who have little to no symptoms but are contagious.

    4. Chickenpox/shingles - The CDC does not even consider chickenpox a reportable disease, only chickenpox deaths. They do not track the rates of the disease, but all evidence is that chickenpox rates have gone down significantly since the introduction of the vaccine, while shingles rates have increased significantly. The chickenpox vaccine does not prevent shingles. But many theorize that wild chickenpox circulating provided a boost the immune system that kept varicella at bay and suppressed shingles outbreaks. There is zero evidence that anti-vaxers are contributing to an increase in chickenpox cases. Varicella will never be eliminated as long as the vaccine is a live vaccine, and one that sheds so readily. We did not eliminate polio in the US until we eliminated the live vaccine.

    5. Polio - We have not had a case of polio in the US in decades. Polio outbreaks are also correlated with breakdowns in sanitation as well. If dozens of people with active polio cases suddenly came to the US, we would not see large outbreaks like we had decades ago. The vaccine played a large role in eliminating the disease here, but not the _only_ role. The pockets of polio left in the world are largely due to war and civil unrest. We still need to keep vaccinating for it here, but anti-vaxers have not caused a single case of polio in the US.

    6. Smallpox - We don't vaccinate for smallpox anymore, except military. Smallpox has been eliminated worldwide. I'm shocked at how many people blame anti-vaxers for the return of smallpox when that is literally not a thing. If some evil person weaponizes smallpox and it returns, anti-vaxers won't be to blame.

    I'm trying to think of any other vaccine preventable diseases that have made a resurgence?

    I disagree that anti-vaxers are responsible for "plenty of problems"

    I think much of the drama is an attempt to shift attention away from the limitations of vaccines, and unfortunately, we do so at the expense of other public health messages that could reduce the spread of diseases.

    You want to protect immune compromised people? The single most effective thing that would help them is increased access to paid sick time. People go to work sick and send their kids to school sick because they are living hand to mouth and cannot afford to miss a day. The immune compromised in society are also vulnerable to the hundreds of diseases that we don't have vaccines for. Vaccines are just one piece of a larger puzzle, and a piece that has been blown grossly out of proportion.
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    Well Becca, you certainly have a right to your opinion, but I happen to be old enough to have seen, as a young physician, many infectious diseases out ther in the field. Measles encephalitis, children blue, choking with pertussis or worse, diphteria, just as a couple of examples. That was not a pretty sight and I truly hope that my grandsons that aspire to become physicians will not have to see them once again.
    Oh yes, polio devastated untold numbers regardless of their social status. The mass vaccination started in 1954. I matriculated med school in 1956 and, you know what? I never saw a fresh case of polio.
    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
    by Thomas Henry Huxley
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    Amazing how dumb this thread is getting....the polio vaccine only played a large role?

    My mother worked as a polio nurse in LA in the 1940s.....iron lungs and all that...she would say you are out of your mind....
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    I disagree. ..

    I disagree that anti-vaxers are responsible for "plenty of problems"
    It pains a man of user4s immense social stature to agree with a loathsome deplorable anti-vaccer like pvp (and while I am a strong advocate for vaccinations), but she is right.

    There is a calculus to the reasoning of the popular media and the herd majority on social matters. It goes something like this : If something is "right" (vaccination) to do and an out group dissents they are setting themselves up for scapegoat status. So something "bad" happens (like a measles outbreak) and the herd attacks the scapegoated out group regardless the real cause of the outbreak. It has nothing to do with science or epidemiology it is just human nature. After seeing this countless times one wonders if the measles have nothing to do with the blame game. Perhaps the popular media attacks are to misdirect the public from the real causes and failings in protecting the population from such outbreaks.

    So I say to my fellow advocates of vaccinations, lets make our case, it is an easy one to make. But reflexively blaming those that do not vaccinate for an outbreak of a disease void of any of the primary evidence in the case is a despicable thing to do.

    As a weak analogy, imagine a State with vast state and national forest resources and leaving them to over grow and dry out, putting at risk thousands of peoples homes to burning down. Imagine if that State were to run a multimillion dollar ad campaign to warn the nation that men driving around in trucks with tow chains starts forest fires.

    It is not that trucks with chains dont start fires, it is that the focus of attention on this one possible source of the fire misdirects the public from the far far greater risks and irresponsible public policy that leads to vast tracks of land being burned to the ground.

    -message brought to you by the user4 Ad council, only you can prevent forest fires!
    Last edited by user4; 03-28-2019 at 06:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by user4 View Post
    It pains a man of user4s immense social stature to agree with a loathsome deplorable anti-vaccer like pvp (and while I am a strong advocate for vaccinations), but she is right.

    There is a calculus to the reasoning of the popular media and the herd majority on social matters. It goes something like this : If something is "right" (vaccination) to do and an out group dissents they are setting themselves up for scapegoat status. So something "bad" happens (like a measles outbreak) and the herd attacks the scapegoated out group regardless the real cause of the outbreak. It has nothing to do with science or epidemiology it is just human nature. After seeing this countless times one wonders if the measles have nothing to do with the blame game. Perhaps the popular media attacks are to misdirect the public from the real causes and failings in protecting the population from such outbreaks.

    So I say to my fellow advocates of vaccinations, lets make our case, it is an easy one to make. But reflexively blaming those that do not vaccinate for an outbreak of a disease void of any of the primary evidence in the case is a despicable thing to do.

    As a weak analogy, imagine a State with vast state and national forest resources and leaving them to over grow and dry out, putting at risk thousands of peoples homes to burning down. Imagine if that State were to run a multimillion dollar ad campaign to warn the nation that men driving around in trucks with tow chains starts forest fires.

    It is not that trucks with chains dont start fires, it is that the focus of attention on this one possible source of the fire misdirects the public from the far far greater risks and irresponsible public policy that leads to vast tracks of land being burned to the ground.

    -message brought to you by the user4 Ad council, only you can prevent forest fires!
    Thank you! I think your forest fires analogy is a good one.

    Agree 100% with this post except for the part about me being a deplorable anti-vaxer. My kids have received most of the vaccines on the CDC schedule and I do not advocate for people to not vaccinate.

    If people actually started having nuanced discussions about public health, instead of making anti-vaxers the scapegoat at the expense of everything else, we would ultimately better be able to protect everyone in society, especially those with compromised immune systems.

    Figuring out ways to improve vaccination rates is part of that conversation. People choose not to vaccinate for many reasons, and some of those reasons can be overcome. Is it worth turning into a military state to achieve that goal? I strongly feel that the scientific evidence does not support that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    ..
    Agree 100% with this post except for the part about me being a deplorable anti-vaxer.
    Its not personal its just user4 demonstrating power and social status to make sure that the deplorables know they are beneath me and kept in their place. I do this to guarantee that I have the only respected bull horn in the public square. In this way I set the agenda. And I hope that they will say of me someday that "He came to do good and he did very well indeed".

    Seriously, if and when an anti-vax community actually does cause a serious outbreak of a deadly disease, wouldnt the epidemiological evidence be more easily believed by them if they had not endured countless false accusations for outbreaks they had nothing to do with.

    We should all tone down the blame game and we can all live in health and peace with minimal infringement on others inalienable rights.

    Also, to repeat, areas where vaccinations should be mandatory and strictly enforced are in our most densely populated urban areas. That is where real lives can be saved for very low cost.
    Last edited by user4; 03-29-2019 at 12:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by polevaultpower View Post
    I strongly feel that the scientific evidence does not support that.
    A question for you, pvp, concerning that. As to the scientific evidence, which academic medical journals do you read routinely, or subscribe to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam1729 View Post
    A question for you, pvp, concerning that. As to the scientific evidence, which academic medical journals do you read routinely, or subscribe to?
    doubt pvp reads any...apologists for anti-vaxxer reasoning have no place...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam1729 View Post
    A question for you, pvp, concerning that. As to the scientific evidence, which academic medical journals do you read routinely, or subscribe to?
    I read the CDC summary of the rotavirus vaccine (and its issues) and that scared the crap out of me. As an individual without kids I didn't see the cost outweighing the benefit, even with the new vaccine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedoorknobbroke View Post
    doubt pvp reads any...apologists for anti-vaxxer reasoning have no place...
    let's not get personal

    I'd hate to have to shut down an overall informative thread
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