Facts, Not Fiction

 
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    #11
    tandfman -- not trying to get off-topic here, but this demonstrates the contrary:

    1920 Olympic Games:

    1. ETATS-UNIS (C.W.Paddock, J.V.Scholz, L.C.Murchison, M.M.Kirksey).

    1920 Olympic Games:

    Paddock won the 100m gold; Kirksey won the silver.

    How far back do interchangeable relay atheltes go? Have they stood on the medal stands along with the finalists?
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    #12
    I'm not going to argue with you. I was simply offering my interpretation of that stuff you quoted. I was not stating that the quote was historically accurate. I'm not likely to have the time today to look for precedents, but I'll put it on my "one of these days" list.

    OK, I just remembered a quick source and found that at least in 1932, none of the three USA men in the 100m ran the 4x100m relay. and I think there were other examples before that of guys who ran the 100 but not the relay.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tandfman
    Quote Originally Posted by gh
    Current policy is that they get medals yes. I believe the first year this happened was '84, before that, no (at least not in track).

    As for going to the podium, while I can't cite chapter & verse, I do know that at some WC/OG which I announced there were more than 4 on the podium.
    I have the same recollection, but it's my understanding that the standard protocol calls for only the four finalists to get their medals on the podium. I'm not sure that's written anywhere, though, at least I couldn't find anything on the IAAF web site. That could be why the actual practice may have varied from place to place.
    OK, I now remember where I've seen it in print. It does now appear to be the standard protocol, at least these days, and it shows up in the team manuals that are done for each event. See, for example http://www.moscow2006.ru/docs/team_manual-eng.doc

    This is from Section 18.2 of that manual: When a delegation competes in relay semi-finals and finals with more than four (4) athletes, only the four athletes in the final will be awarded medals in the official ceremony. The other athletes will receive their medals later.

    I believe there was something similar in the team manual for the WJC in Beijing. The team manuals for Helsinki and Paris are no longer on line so I couldn't easily check to see how long that language has been in there.
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    #14
    Good find... that sums up the questions I had!
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EPelle
    Morten, I:m unsure what you are stating. Are you suggesting that it was first in 1980 that any nation replaced athletes between heats and finals? That:s how I:m reading it.
    Sorry for my english, I'm a little bit out of practise...

    4x400m W:
    1980 1. SOV (Tatyana Prorochenko, Tatyana Goyshchik, Nina Zyuskova, Irina Nazarova-Bagryantseva
    -Ludmilla Chernova, Olga Mineyeva)
    2. DDR (Gabriele LŲwe, Barbara Krug, Christina Lathan, Marita Koch)
    3. GBR (Lindsay MacDonald, Michelle Probert, Joslyn Hoyte-Smith, Donna-Marie Hartley)

    Chernova + Mineyeva was replaced in the final

    1980 1. SOV (Remegijus Valiulis, Mikhail Linge, Nikolay Chernetsky, Viktor Markin (RUS),
    -Viktor Burakov)
    2. DDR (Klaus Thiele, Andreas Knebel, Frank Schaffer, Volker Beck)
    3. ITA (Stefano Malinvermi, Mauro Zuliani, Roberto Tozzi, Pietro Mennea)

    Burakov was replaced in the final.

    1956 4x400m M
    1956 1. USA (Louis Jones, Jesse Mashburn, Charles Jenkins, Thomas "Tom" Courtney)
    2. AUS (Leon Gregory, David Lean, Graham Gipson, Richard Kevan Gosper
    -John Goodman)
    3. GBR (John Salisbury, Michael Wheeler, F. Peter Higgins, Derek Johnson)

    I believe Goodman was replaced in the final!

    1982 EC 4x400m:
    1982 1. BRD (Erwin Skamrahl, Harald Schmid, Thomas Giessing, Hartmut Weber,
    -Edgar Nakladal)
    2. GBR (David Jenkins, Garry Cook, Todd Bennett, Phil Brown)
    3. SOV (Alexander Trotshilo, Pavel Rostchin, Pavel Konovalov, Viktor Markin (RUS),
    -Vladimir Prosin)

    Nakladal + prosin was replaced

    1983 WC 4x400m M
    1983 1. SOV (Sergey Lovatshev, Alexander Trotshilo, Nikolay Chernetsky, Viktor Markin)
    2. BRD (Erwin Skamral, JŲrg Vaihinger, Harald Schmid, Hartmut Weber,
    -Martin Weppler, Edgar Nakladal)
    3. GBR (Ainsley Bennett, Garry Cook, Todd Bennett, Phil Brown,
    -Kriss Akabusi)

    Weppler, nakladal and Akabusi was replaced

    1983 4x400m W
    1983 1. DDR (Kerstin Walther, Sabine Busch, Marita Koch, Dagmar RŁbsam
    -Undine Bremer, Ellen Fiedler)
    2. TCH (TatŠna KocembovŠ, Zuzana MoravcokovŠ, Milena MatejkovicovŠ, Jarmila KratochvilovŠ)
    3. SOV (Jelena Korban, Marina Ivanova, Irina Baskakova, Maria Pinigina)

    Bremer + Fiedler was replaced

    This is the first replacements in OG, EC and WC as far as I know
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    #16
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    This listing MAY be missing the first women's Olympic substitution. It's not mentioned either in Ekkehard Zur Megede's definitive Olympic track history, nor in the thick volume that Athletics Arena put out on Munich, but the IAAF's Olympic Handbook (by Mark Butler) indicates that Sonia Lannaman ran the 4x1 heats for Britain but was replaced in the final.

    (I'd note also that the potential Goodman substitution for Australia in '56 is mentioned in none of the above sources; not that that makes it untrue.)
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    #17
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    Wallechinsky doesn't mention Goodman's heat run, nor does Athletics Australian historical records:
    http://www.athletics.org.au/history/...athlete465.htm
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by AS
    Wallechinsky doesn't mention Goodman's heat run, nor does Athletics Australian historical records:
    http://www.athletics.org.au/history/...athlete465.htm
    Interesting link!

    I knew that Wallachinsky didn't mention him.

    I once read it in an old olympic book. But off course; the book might have been wrong!

    It would have been interesting to ask mr Goodman himself!

    Anyone knew where in Australia he is living?
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    #19
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    The person to ask would be Australian/global stat guru and historian Paul Jenes at paul.jenes@athletics.org.au

    In looking for Paul's contact details I did stumble across this interview with him: http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2...sf/s264144.htm
    Well worth a read.
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by gh
    This listing MAY be missing the first women's Olympic substitution. It's not mentioned either in Ekkehard Zur Megede's definitive Olympic track history, nor in the thick volume that Athletics Arena put out on Munich, but the IAAF's Olympic Handbook (by Mark Butler) indicates that Sonia Lannaman ran the 4x1 heats for Britain but was replaced in the final.

    (I'd note also that the potential Goodman substitution for Australia in '56 is mentioned in none of the above sources; not that that makes it untrue.)
    As far as I know Sonia ran in both the heat and the final. I believe GB used the same 4x100m team all the way in 1980:
    Heather Hunte, Kathy Smallwood, Beverly Goddard, Sonia Lannamann

    M
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